How to meditate in a chaotic world | The Gray Area

Mindfulness is everywhere now, which is kind of weird.

What started as a countercultural practice has become a productivity hack and a billion-dollar app ecosystem. On one level, it’s great that more people are meditating. But somewhere along the way, the whole thing got flattened. When mindfulness is mainly about optimizing your output, we’ve probably missed the point.

Today’s guest is Jon Kabat-Zinn, pioneer of the American mindfulness movement and author of the mega-bestseller Wherever You Go, There You Are. Jon’s work helped bring meditation into medicine, schools, sports, and everyday life. He’s also spent decades reminding people that mindfulness isn’t about escape, self-improvement, or becoming some perfectly serene version of yourself.

Sean and Jon talk about what mindfulness actually is, why being present is so damn hard, and what happens when industry turns meditation into another tool for self-optimization.

This episode originally aired in December of 2023.

Host: Sean Illing (@SeanIlling)
Guest: Jon Kabat-Zinn, author of Wherever You Go, There You Are: Mindfulness Meditation in Everyday Life.

00:00 Intro
03:02 Mindfulness vs. mindlessness
13:12 What to do when you have a lapse in attention
19:36 The mindfulness industry
34:10 Recognizing this moment
36:46 A meditation led by Jon Kabat-Zinn

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